SALT LAKE CITY - Jewish leaders in a dispute with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over the practice of posthumous baptisms say there is new evidence that names of Jewish Holocaust victims continue to show up in the church's vast genealogical database.
"We've been dealing with it for 11 years, since 1995, and we continue to deal with it," said Ernest Michel, a Holocaust survivor and founding member of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.
Posthumous baptism is a sacred rite practiced in Mormon church temples for the purpose of offering membership in the church to the deceased. Church members are encouraged to conduct family genealogy research and forward their ancestors' names for proxy baptism.
Church President Gordon B. Hinckley has said the baptismal rite is only an offer of membership that can be rejected in the afterlife by individuals. "So, there's no injury done to anybody," Hinckley told the AP in an interview last November.
But Jews are offended by the practice and in 1995 signed an agreement with Mormon leaders aimed at preventing the names of Holocaust victims from being added to the genealogical index. The agreement would also have limited entries of other Jewish names to those persons who are direct ancestors of current Mormons.
A cross-referencing of more than 1,500 Dutch Jews whose names should have been deleted from the church's International Genealogical Index remain in the database, Michel said.
Over the past three months, the entries were matched by Salt Lake City researcher Helen Radkey against a 1995 list of deleted names provided by church leaders to Michel's organization.
Michel, whose parents were posthumously baptized, said Wednesday that he is in talks with church leaders and is working on a July meeting date to discuss the latest findings.
Mormon church spokesman Mike Otterson said Friday that no meeting had been scheduled, but that Michel has been encouraged to bring his concerns before a working group of church staff and Jews set up in April 2005 to continue to work out database issues.
"One of the benefits of previous meetings is that we established an ongoing joint working group that would address what would appear to be any anomalies, or anything that appears to be slipping through our screening process," Otterson said. "That committee continues to meet and continues to be the best place for addressing these concerns."
___
Monday, May 29, 2006
The Emergent Church Movement and Conservative Evangelicalism Why the Two Movements are Mutually Exclusive and Cannot be Reconciled
by Lee Edward Enochs
Chairman,
The Evangelical Debate Society
As I reflect upon this issue with Chuck Smith Jr. and the Emergent Church Movement in general, I have noticed a distinct tendency within EC proponents to downplay the significance and theological contributions of the Magisterial Reformers Martin Luther, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli and John Knox.
I have witnessed within EC an almost disdain of Luther the Reformers and conservative Evangelical theology in general and this troubles me, since Luther, Calvin and etc, are the foundational theologians of Evangelicalism in general and to not acknowledge their contributions makes me wonder if we should deem EC as a viable expression of true Evangelicalism at all or if we should label EC as a totally different movement from Evangelical Christianity.
The fundamental thesis I am attempting to postulate is that Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformation is what gave birth and impetus to Evangelical Protestantism in the first place, thus to refuse to acknowledge the positive contributions of the founding fathers of our faith is like saying that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and the US Constitution has no relevance in socio-political discussions on the future of American Democracy today.I am afraid what is really at the heart of the Emergent Church controversy within American Evangelical Protestantism today concerns the validity of Post-modernity as a viable ideological foundation for Evangelical theology and polity today.
The EC movement is ultimately an attempt to synthesize what is perceived to be the best of both worlds: Evangelicalism and Post-modernity. However, there is a growing consensus within Conservative American Evangelicalism that the two movements are irreconcilable and are an unwise attempt at ecclesiastical and doctrinal syncreticism: an attempt at mixing two mutually exclusive world-views into a homogeneous spiritual movement.
The world renown German Philosopher Hegel saw this approach in terms of "Dialectical synthesis" wherein a thesis and its antithesis is merged forming a synthesis.Post-modernity and traditional Protestantism founded by Luther and Calvin cannot be successfully synthesized since they are at once two mutually exclusive world views that have two radically irreconcilable ideological starting points: foundationalism and propositional and ethical relativism.EC attempts two have the best of both worlds by maintaining a facade and external shell of adherence to Evangelical tradition and theology while attempting to utilize the entirely antithetical postmodern cultural hermeneutic, that seeks to obliterate doctrinal and ethical absolutes.EC cannot have the best of both worlds, either its proponents will lapse into non-Christian unbelief like the rest our Postmodern culture that is militantly opposed to traditional Bible based Evangelicalism or EC will return back to the Theo-centric, Christocentric and Bibliocentric centrality focus that differentiates Evangelicalism from all the other ideological and religious options.Historic Evangelical Protestantism is centered around propositional absolutes, that Almighty God exists and has spoken absolutely, objectively and coherently in the Bible which it deems to be the exclusively authoritative, infallible, inerrant and inspired Word of Almighty God and that God has communicated in a final salvific sense in the historical-redemptive forensic soteriological act of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.
Evangelicalism teaches that there are non-negotiable and unchanging theological and ethical norms based on the authority of Scripture that cannot be broken irrespective of the passing fancy of contemporary culture.In diametrical counter distinction to the objectivist and absolutist theological and ethical standard of historic Biblical Evangelicalism, the advent and cultural ascendancy of Post-modernity seeks to obliterate traditional ideological and ethical norms within Western Civilization and postulates that there is not such thing as absolute truth and morality.
EC attempts to synthesize post-modernity and Evangelicalism, but like attempting to mix oil and water, it will fail to make the engine that is the historic Church run, but will rather spun out on the road of bankrupt ideology like every other non-Bible based world view that has attempted to replace Evangelicalism as the truth.EC and Evangelicalism cannot be successfully synthesized because EC seeks to utilize post-modernity as an ideology and post-modernity is inherently relativistic, the diametrical ideological nemesis of historic Christianity that says God has spoken in an absolute and final matter.
Either EC will continue to go down the pathway towards propositional relativity or it will swing back to the historic Evangelical Church with its objective and unchanging doctrinal foundation and criteria for truth, it cannot have both.
Chairman,
The Evangelical Debate Society
As I reflect upon this issue with Chuck Smith Jr. and the Emergent Church Movement in general, I have noticed a distinct tendency within EC proponents to downplay the significance and theological contributions of the Magisterial Reformers Martin Luther, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli and John Knox.
I have witnessed within EC an almost disdain of Luther the Reformers and conservative Evangelical theology in general and this troubles me, since Luther, Calvin and etc, are the foundational theologians of Evangelicalism in general and to not acknowledge their contributions makes me wonder if we should deem EC as a viable expression of true Evangelicalism at all or if we should label EC as a totally different movement from Evangelical Christianity.
The fundamental thesis I am attempting to postulate is that Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformation is what gave birth and impetus to Evangelical Protestantism in the first place, thus to refuse to acknowledge the positive contributions of the founding fathers of our faith is like saying that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and the US Constitution has no relevance in socio-political discussions on the future of American Democracy today.I am afraid what is really at the heart of the Emergent Church controversy within American Evangelical Protestantism today concerns the validity of Post-modernity as a viable ideological foundation for Evangelical theology and polity today.
The EC movement is ultimately an attempt to synthesize what is perceived to be the best of both worlds: Evangelicalism and Post-modernity. However, there is a growing consensus within Conservative American Evangelicalism that the two movements are irreconcilable and are an unwise attempt at ecclesiastical and doctrinal syncreticism: an attempt at mixing two mutually exclusive world-views into a homogeneous spiritual movement.
The world renown German Philosopher Hegel saw this approach in terms of "Dialectical synthesis" wherein a thesis and its antithesis is merged forming a synthesis.Post-modernity and traditional Protestantism founded by Luther and Calvin cannot be successfully synthesized since they are at once two mutually exclusive world views that have two radically irreconcilable ideological starting points: foundationalism and propositional and ethical relativism.EC attempts two have the best of both worlds by maintaining a facade and external shell of adherence to Evangelical tradition and theology while attempting to utilize the entirely antithetical postmodern cultural hermeneutic, that seeks to obliterate doctrinal and ethical absolutes.EC cannot have the best of both worlds, either its proponents will lapse into non-Christian unbelief like the rest our Postmodern culture that is militantly opposed to traditional Bible based Evangelicalism or EC will return back to the Theo-centric, Christocentric and Bibliocentric centrality focus that differentiates Evangelicalism from all the other ideological and religious options.Historic Evangelical Protestantism is centered around propositional absolutes, that Almighty God exists and has spoken absolutely, objectively and coherently in the Bible which it deems to be the exclusively authoritative, infallible, inerrant and inspired Word of Almighty God and that God has communicated in a final salvific sense in the historical-redemptive forensic soteriological act of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.
Evangelicalism teaches that there are non-negotiable and unchanging theological and ethical norms based on the authority of Scripture that cannot be broken irrespective of the passing fancy of contemporary culture.In diametrical counter distinction to the objectivist and absolutist theological and ethical standard of historic Biblical Evangelicalism, the advent and cultural ascendancy of Post-modernity seeks to obliterate traditional ideological and ethical norms within Western Civilization and postulates that there is not such thing as absolute truth and morality.
EC attempts to synthesize post-modernity and Evangelicalism, but like attempting to mix oil and water, it will fail to make the engine that is the historic Church run, but will rather spun out on the road of bankrupt ideology like every other non-Bible based world view that has attempted to replace Evangelicalism as the truth.EC and Evangelicalism cannot be successfully synthesized because EC seeks to utilize post-modernity as an ideology and post-modernity is inherently relativistic, the diametrical ideological nemesis of historic Christianity that says God has spoken in an absolute and final matter.
Either EC will continue to go down the pathway towards propositional relativity or it will swing back to the historic Evangelical Church with its objective and unchanging doctrinal foundation and criteria for truth, it cannot have both.
Defense of the Eternal Preexistence of Jesus Christ
Speech Given in the Trinity Debate on December 30, 2005 at the First Congergational Church in Riverside California
Throughout church history, the Christian Church has always maintained faith in the Doctrine of the Triune nature of Almighty God, affirming the essential Biblical truth that within the one true and living God exists three distinct persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ preexisted before His incarnation.One of the egregious errors of the Unitarian position regarding the Trinity pertains to the Preexistence and deity of Jesus Christ.
By Pre-existence we mean, that the body of Jesus Christ, began with it's conception in the Womb, however, the mind and soul of Jesus existed before the conception of His earthly body. Jesus is unique in that He alone possesses a soul that pre-existed His conception in the womb of His mother. Whereas, all other humans begin to exist at conception, the Son of God pre-existed His entrance into the World. The Deity of Christ and eternal preexistence is openly denied by the Unitarians.The Unitarians believe that God is only one person and that Jesus Christ is not God, the second person of the Trinity who is co-equal with the Father and deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit as well.
They argue that Christ did not actually physically exist as a person before the incarnation, rather he existed in the foreknowledge and plan of God. Anthony Buzzard, one of the leading modern Unitarian scholars argues in his book says that the Prexistence statements in the NT really have to do with predestination and foreordination and not that Christ pre-existed in eternity past.On Page 176 of this same work, Buzzard writes, the view of Jesus as uncreated" is not derived from scripture; rather, it has been handed down through post-biblical tradition." Again, on Page 181 and 182 Buzzard writes,"Talk of Jesus preexistence [in Scripture] ought probably in most, perhaps in all cases, to be understood, on the analogy of the preexistence of the Torah, to indicate the eternal divine purpose being achieved through him rather than preexistence of a fully personal kind. "
On Page 184 Buzzard quotes James Dunn in stating,"Outside of John's gospel, there is no doctrine of a literal preexistence."However, this Unitarian denial of the eternal pre-existence of the Lord Jesus Christ is easily refuted by Holy Scripture. The Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ is God and that he personally existed in eternity past before His Incarnation via the virgin Birth. It must be noted that the entire Unitarian line of argumentation against the doctrine of the Trinity and its denial of the deity and pre-existence of Christ can be demonstrated to be in absolute error if it can be shown from Scripture and the original languages of the Bible, that Jesus Christ personally existed at least one day before His incarnation. The following Scriptures clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ did personally pre-exist before His incarnation and easily refute the heretical errors of Unitarianism argued for by own opponents in this debate.
Micah 5:2 2"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." German Old Testament scholars Kiel & Delitzsch in their 10 volume commentary on the OT clearly demonstrate that this passage, a prophecy concerning the Messiah refers to Jesus Christ’s pre-existence when they write, that: “the future Ruler of Israel, whose goings forth reach back into eternity, is to bring forth from the insignificant Bethlehem, like his ancestor David.
The descent of David from Bethlehem forms the substratum not only for the prophetic announcement of the fact that the Messiah would come forth this small town, but also for the divine appointment that Christ was born in Bethlehem, the city of David.” Dr. Thomas McComiskey, esteemed professor of OT & Semitic languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity school states in the Expositor’s Bible commentary that the Hebrew grammar & syntax of Micah 5:2, in the terms “Old (qedem) & (yeme olam) denote great antiquity as well as eternity in the strictest sense. He argues that, Christ pre-existed in eternity past & only in Jesus Christ does this prophecy find fulfillment. (p427). Dr. Pocock, the highly respected English Arabic & Hebrew scholar, who occupied both the chairs of Arabic & Hebrew at Oxford argued that the term “of old, from everlasting” signals a description of Christ’s eternal generation, or His going forth as the Son of God, begotten of His father before all worlds” John 1:1-3 we find these Words,In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, & the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, & apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.This is a VERY simple statement of pure-and-simple plurality-in-unity.
John 1:14 the Apostle John writes, “& the Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth”I am well aware of the fact that Buzzard & the Unitarians argue that the Logos mentioned here by the Apostle John is not referring to a person, however, taken in context, when you view John 1:1-14 as a literary unit, the Logos can only refer to Jesus Christ who had a pre-existence & ultimately became flesh.If these verses do not refer to Jesus Christ who became flesh, what in the World does He mean when He says, “The Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father” who then, if not Jesus, is the Only begotten of the Father?
The context of these passages conclusively demonstrate that:
1. The Logos existed from the beginning with God.
2. The Logos is Himself God. The lit. Greek renders it ‘& God was the Word”
3. The Logos had preexistence as God.
4. All things came into being through the Logos.
5. The Logos became flesh.
6. The Logos is Himself Jesus Christ as evidenced by the fact that the Logos becomes flesh & is called the only begotten of the Father.It is clear from the writings of the Apostle John that the only begotten of the Father refers to Jesus.
John the Baptist argues for Christ’s preexistence when he says in John 1:15 “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.” He even says it again in 1:27John wasn’t influenced so much by the Greek philosophers as our opponents might think, he was well schooled in the Targums of which we saw taught that the Meemra’, THE WORD was YHWH.John 8:58, Jesus Christ once again exerts His pre-existence when he stated, “Before Abraham was, I am” conclusively demonstrating that Jesus believed that He existed before Abraham.”Dr. AT Robertson, the most renowned Greek scholar & Grammarian of the 20th century makes some interesting points here:
1. Greek is clearly saying that "before Abraham came into existence or was born"2. Jesus is undoubtedly claiming, “eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God.” ego eimi3. The contrast between genesthai, which is Abraham’s entrance into existence & eimi (Jesus as a timeless being) is complete.Did they not want to stone him because he was claiming to be deity? Well The "I am" phrase is how the OT Septuagint translators render the Hebrew "I AM" of Ex 3:14. This "I am" statement of Jesus is immediately understood by the Jews, who pick up stones to execute the proper sentence for blasphemy (Lev 24.16).
John 17:5, another devastating verse against the Unitarian argument against the Pre-existence of Christ, Jesus said,5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Hey here is a question for you, how can Jesus have glory with the Father before the world began if he didn’t pre-exist?It is clear from that Jesus pre-existed before His incarnation & claimed that He enjoyed fellowship with the Father before the foundation of the world.
Again Dr. A.T. Robertson writing on the Greek Grammatical construction writes,“Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory & fellowship (cf. Mat 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual & conscious existence at the Father's side…It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book & with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in verse John 24 are "undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke" (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132).
But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Phil 2:5-11).The Apostle Paul in Colossians 1:15-16 also clearly argues for the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ, when he writes,15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens & on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him & for Him. 17He is before all things, & in Him all things hold together.When looking at the prepositions used in the Greek en-in; dia-through, & eis, scholars point out that these not only prove supreme deity but also his preexistence. It is absolutely obvious & inescapable from that Jesus Christ is God & that He preexisted before the world, evidenced by the fact Paul says here that Christ is before all things & in Him all things are held together.
No amount of Iesegesis & grammatical gymnastics can allow the Unitarians to escape from the obvious fact that Paul believed Jesus Christ pre-existed before His virgin Birth, to say otherwise is to go against the grammatical construction of the text & to lapse into a Presuppositional bias against Christ’s pre-existence based on previously held views against the Deity of Christ & the Trinity.Lastly Hebrews 1:1-3 clearly demonstrates that Jesus has preexistence before His physical birth in this world, when the author of Hebrews states;
1. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions & in many ways,
2. In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.Verse two clearly states that God the Father made the world through Jesus Christ.
A.T. Robertson writes,“Through whom The Son as Heir is also the Intermediate Agent (dia) in the work of creation as we have it in Col 1:16; John 1:3….the Scriptural evidence for the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ, conclusively demonstrating His deity is abundant, to argue otherwise is to go against the context of these verses, to lapse into esiegeis and a Presuppositional bias against the Trinity, not because the Scriptures actually teach your Unitarian position.”In verse 3 the literal Greek reads that the Son is the exact character & nature of God. The word for character or representation when used in extra biblical literature refers to an exact copy, like an impression in clay or a stamping on a coin. Jesus nature is an exact copy of the nature of the Father.But this is what Trinitarians expect…and what Unitarians have problems with.
Throughout church history, the Christian Church has always maintained faith in the Doctrine of the Triune nature of Almighty God, affirming the essential Biblical truth that within the one true and living God exists three distinct persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ preexisted before His incarnation.One of the egregious errors of the Unitarian position regarding the Trinity pertains to the Preexistence and deity of Jesus Christ.
By Pre-existence we mean, that the body of Jesus Christ, began with it's conception in the Womb, however, the mind and soul of Jesus existed before the conception of His earthly body. Jesus is unique in that He alone possesses a soul that pre-existed His conception in the womb of His mother. Whereas, all other humans begin to exist at conception, the Son of God pre-existed His entrance into the World. The Deity of Christ and eternal preexistence is openly denied by the Unitarians.The Unitarians believe that God is only one person and that Jesus Christ is not God, the second person of the Trinity who is co-equal with the Father and deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit as well.
They argue that Christ did not actually physically exist as a person before the incarnation, rather he existed in the foreknowledge and plan of God. Anthony Buzzard, one of the leading modern Unitarian scholars argues in his book says that the Prexistence statements in the NT really have to do with predestination and foreordination and not that Christ pre-existed in eternity past.On Page 176 of this same work, Buzzard writes, the view of Jesus as uncreated" is not derived from scripture; rather, it has been handed down through post-biblical tradition." Again, on Page 181 and 182 Buzzard writes,"Talk of Jesus preexistence [in Scripture] ought probably in most, perhaps in all cases, to be understood, on the analogy of the preexistence of the Torah, to indicate the eternal divine purpose being achieved through him rather than preexistence of a fully personal kind. "
On Page 184 Buzzard quotes James Dunn in stating,"Outside of John's gospel, there is no doctrine of a literal preexistence."However, this Unitarian denial of the eternal pre-existence of the Lord Jesus Christ is easily refuted by Holy Scripture. The Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ is God and that he personally existed in eternity past before His Incarnation via the virgin Birth. It must be noted that the entire Unitarian line of argumentation against the doctrine of the Trinity and its denial of the deity and pre-existence of Christ can be demonstrated to be in absolute error if it can be shown from Scripture and the original languages of the Bible, that Jesus Christ personally existed at least one day before His incarnation. The following Scriptures clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ did personally pre-exist before His incarnation and easily refute the heretical errors of Unitarianism argued for by own opponents in this debate.
Micah 5:2 2"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." German Old Testament scholars Kiel & Delitzsch in their 10 volume commentary on the OT clearly demonstrate that this passage, a prophecy concerning the Messiah refers to Jesus Christ’s pre-existence when they write, that: “the future Ruler of Israel, whose goings forth reach back into eternity, is to bring forth from the insignificant Bethlehem, like his ancestor David.
The descent of David from Bethlehem forms the substratum not only for the prophetic announcement of the fact that the Messiah would come forth this small town, but also for the divine appointment that Christ was born in Bethlehem, the city of David.” Dr. Thomas McComiskey, esteemed professor of OT & Semitic languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity school states in the Expositor’s Bible commentary that the Hebrew grammar & syntax of Micah 5:2, in the terms “Old (qedem) & (yeme olam) denote great antiquity as well as eternity in the strictest sense. He argues that, Christ pre-existed in eternity past & only in Jesus Christ does this prophecy find fulfillment. (p427). Dr. Pocock, the highly respected English Arabic & Hebrew scholar, who occupied both the chairs of Arabic & Hebrew at Oxford argued that the term “of old, from everlasting” signals a description of Christ’s eternal generation, or His going forth as the Son of God, begotten of His father before all worlds” John 1:1-3 we find these Words,In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, & the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, & apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.This is a VERY simple statement of pure-and-simple plurality-in-unity.
John 1:14 the Apostle John writes, “& the Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth”I am well aware of the fact that Buzzard & the Unitarians argue that the Logos mentioned here by the Apostle John is not referring to a person, however, taken in context, when you view John 1:1-14 as a literary unit, the Logos can only refer to Jesus Christ who had a pre-existence & ultimately became flesh.If these verses do not refer to Jesus Christ who became flesh, what in the World does He mean when He says, “The Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father” who then, if not Jesus, is the Only begotten of the Father?
The context of these passages conclusively demonstrate that:
1. The Logos existed from the beginning with God.
2. The Logos is Himself God. The lit. Greek renders it ‘& God was the Word”
3. The Logos had preexistence as God.
4. All things came into being through the Logos.
5. The Logos became flesh.
6. The Logos is Himself Jesus Christ as evidenced by the fact that the Logos becomes flesh & is called the only begotten of the Father.It is clear from the writings of the Apostle John that the only begotten of the Father refers to Jesus.
John the Baptist argues for Christ’s preexistence when he says in John 1:15 “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.” He even says it again in 1:27John wasn’t influenced so much by the Greek philosophers as our opponents might think, he was well schooled in the Targums of which we saw taught that the Meemra’, THE WORD was YHWH.John 8:58, Jesus Christ once again exerts His pre-existence when he stated, “Before Abraham was, I am” conclusively demonstrating that Jesus believed that He existed before Abraham.”Dr. AT Robertson, the most renowned Greek scholar & Grammarian of the 20th century makes some interesting points here:
1. Greek is clearly saying that "before Abraham came into existence or was born"2. Jesus is undoubtedly claiming, “eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God.” ego eimi3. The contrast between genesthai, which is Abraham’s entrance into existence & eimi (Jesus as a timeless being) is complete.Did they not want to stone him because he was claiming to be deity? Well The "I am" phrase is how the OT Septuagint translators render the Hebrew "I AM" of Ex 3:14. This "I am" statement of Jesus is immediately understood by the Jews, who pick up stones to execute the proper sentence for blasphemy (Lev 24.16).
John 17:5, another devastating verse against the Unitarian argument against the Pre-existence of Christ, Jesus said,5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Hey here is a question for you, how can Jesus have glory with the Father before the world began if he didn’t pre-exist?It is clear from that Jesus pre-existed before His incarnation & claimed that He enjoyed fellowship with the Father before the foundation of the world.
Again Dr. A.T. Robertson writing on the Greek Grammatical construction writes,“Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory & fellowship (cf. Mat 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual & conscious existence at the Father's side…It is small wonder that those who deny or reject the deity of Jesus Christ have trouble with the Johannine authorship of this book & with the genuineness of these words. But even Harnack admits that the words here and in verse John 24 are "undoubtedly the reflection of the certainty with which Jesus himself spoke" (What Is Christianity, Engl. Tr., p. 132).
But Paul, as clearly as John, believes in the actual pre-existence and deity of Jesus Christ (Phil 2:5-11).The Apostle Paul in Colossians 1:15-16 also clearly argues for the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ, when he writes,15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens & on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him & for Him. 17He is before all things, & in Him all things hold together.When looking at the prepositions used in the Greek en-in; dia-through, & eis, scholars point out that these not only prove supreme deity but also his preexistence. It is absolutely obvious & inescapable from that Jesus Christ is God & that He preexisted before the world, evidenced by the fact Paul says here that Christ is before all things & in Him all things are held together.
No amount of Iesegesis & grammatical gymnastics can allow the Unitarians to escape from the obvious fact that Paul believed Jesus Christ pre-existed before His virgin Birth, to say otherwise is to go against the grammatical construction of the text & to lapse into a Presuppositional bias against Christ’s pre-existence based on previously held views against the Deity of Christ & the Trinity.Lastly Hebrews 1:1-3 clearly demonstrates that Jesus has preexistence before His physical birth in this world, when the author of Hebrews states;
1. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions & in many ways,
2. In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.Verse two clearly states that God the Father made the world through Jesus Christ.
A.T. Robertson writes,“Through whom The Son as Heir is also the Intermediate Agent (dia) in the work of creation as we have it in Col 1:16; John 1:3….the Scriptural evidence for the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ, conclusively demonstrating His deity is abundant, to argue otherwise is to go against the context of these verses, to lapse into esiegeis and a Presuppositional bias against the Trinity, not because the Scriptures actually teach your Unitarian position.”In verse 3 the literal Greek reads that the Son is the exact character & nature of God. The word for character or representation when used in extra biblical literature refers to an exact copy, like an impression in clay or a stamping on a coin. Jesus nature is an exact copy of the nature of the Father.But this is what Trinitarians expect…and what Unitarians have problems with.
What I Said at the Debate
(The Following is My Prepared Text for Last Friday's Debate with Dan Mages Held on May 26th 2006)
Good evening, I am grateful to Almighty God to be here tonight in order to defend the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the record, we are orthodox, historical and Biblical Evangelical Christians and we believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.
We believe that God the Father sent God the Son through the power and agency of God the Holy Spirit into the world to die on the cross for our sins And rise again from the dead in order to give all those who sincerely repent and believe in Christ the hope of eternal life.
Throughout the annals of human history a tremendous debate has raged over the true identity of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. While the Historic Christian Church has always affirmed the Doctrine of the Trinity and affirmed that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the Second person of the eternal Godhead, there have been many heretical opponents of historic Christianity.
Over the centuries of church history. there have been many heretical and aberrant views of the person of Jesus Christ.
The heretical group known as the “Gnostics” argued for a Docetic view of Christ and said, that Jesus Christ only “appeared” to take on human flesh and that Jesus Christ never shared both human and divine natures as the Chalcedonian Creedal formulation on the Hypostatic Union Affirms.
The Arians of the Fourth Century argue that Jesus Christ was not God, but rather was a created being that did not possess the same nature as God the Father.
The Modalists of Sabbelians, early opponents of Biblical Christianity likewise denied the Doctrine of the Trinity and argued that only one person exists in the godhead, who takes on different modes of being, some times manifesting Himself as the Father, other times as the Son and then at times as the Holy Spirit.
Sabbellianism is very closely associated with the ancient heresy known as Patripassianism, the belief that God the Father and Son are simply different aspects of God. The implication of this belief is that God the Father suffered on the cross.
Another heretical view concerning the godhead that the historic Christian Church rejects is Tritheism, the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad. The gods are envisaged as having separate powers and separate supreme beings or spheres of influence but working together.
Still another heretical view concerning the nature of God is the Unitarian view, argued for by my opponent this evening Dan Mages.
Historic Unitarianism afirms the notion of Unitary monotheism and believes in the oneness of God as opposed to traditional Christian belief in the Trinity that affirms that there are three distinct persons in the godhead. Historic Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus.
Oxford Trained and Leading Unitarian scholar Dr. Anthony Buzzard who I had the chance to speak with on Wednesday, argues in his book entitled, “The Doctrine of the Trinity” Christianity’s Self Inflicted wound” that in no place in the Bible does the Scriptures ever teach that Jesus Christ is God, rather Jesus is merely a human messiah who carried out the will of God the Father.
Dr. Buzzard says on page 335 of his book that contemporary othodox belief in the divine and human Christ is in all actuality a crypto-gnostic element that has been handed down to us in Trinitarian Christology.
On Page 275, in his chapter in that same book entitled, “The Challenge Facing Trinitarianism Today” Buzzard argues that nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus Christ called God.
Buzzard writes “God in the New Testament almost invariably means the Father of Jesus and never three persons”
However, despite Dr. Buzzard, Dan and the Biblical Unitarian oppostion to the view that Jesus Christ is God, there is nothing in their argument that gives us any reason to abandon the biblical and historic view concerning the Trinity and Deity of Christ. For we the historic and Biblical Church have always believed in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The Historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity believed by all true Christians since the inception of the Church some two millennia ago states unequivocally the doctrine of Trinitarian Monotheism, in that, Almighty God is a singular being who exists simultaneously and eternally as a communion of three distinct and co-eternal persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit who share a single divine essence.
We, the true and historic orthodox Christian Church, believe that there exists only one true and living God and in God exists three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature of being, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We, the historic Christian Church reject the cultic doctrine of the Unitarian position on the nature of God for many irrefutable reasons.
First of all there is nothing in Dan Mages unbiblical and hermeneutically suspect presentation that persuades us to abandon the Biblical and historic doctrine of the Trinity.
His thesis and that of leading Unitarian teacher Anthony Buzzard is guilty of forced exegesis that does not do justice to abundant Scriptural evidence that the Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity and in particular the Deity of Christ, our specific focus this evening. We want to state for the record that we reject the notion implied by Dan and the Unitarians that we are somehow affirming Tritheism; rather, we are strict monotheists.
The historic Christian Church has always believed that there is one true and living God. We affirm the Shema’s declaration in Deuteronomy 6:4 that states, “O hear oh Israel, the Lord Your God is one Lord”
We affirm Isaiah 43:10 which reads,
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,"and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Yet, we believe in the historic doctrine of the Trinity affirming Trinitarian Monotheism. That in the one true and living God exists three distinct persons who share the same essence and divine nature.
The Bible clearly teaches there is one true God, yet it also teaches that those three distinct persons exist within the Godhead.
The Bible clearly calls the Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God.
The Bible explicitly teaches and celebrates that Jesus Christ is God the Son.
The Old Testament clearly teaches the Divinity of the Messiah,
Isaiah 9:6-7 says,
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
My question for Dan regarding Isaiah 9:6 is why is Jesus Christ called “Mighty God if He is not divine?”
Micah 5:2 says,
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
Dr. Thomas McComiskey, esteemed professor of OT & Semitic languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity school states in the Expositor’s Bible commentary that the Hebrew grammar & syntax of Micah 5:2, in the terms “Old (qedem) & (yeme olam) denote great antiquity as well as eternity in the strictest sense. He argues that, Christ pre-existed in eternity past & only in Jesus Christ does this prophecy find fulfillment. (p427). Dr. Pocock, the late and highly respected English Arabic & Hebrew scholar, who occupied both the chairs of Arabic & Hebrew at Oxford argued that the term “of old, from everlasting” signals a description of Christ’s eternal generation, or His going forth as the Son of God, begotten of His father before all worlds”
In the New Testament there are very clear and unambiguous passages that teach that Jesus Christ is God.
Matthew 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”
The Trinitarian language of Matthew 28:19-20 is reminiscent of that which Paul used in 2 Corinthians 13:14:
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all”
My question for Dan is why is Jesus Christ included in the Triadic formulations if He is not God and equal with the Father. Why do we baptize in the name of Christ if He is not equal with the Father. Why does it say baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if only the Father is God, why is Jesus and the Holy Spirit included in the “name” in that Greek Grammatical construction? Why is the singular Greek term (onoma) used here and not a plural form?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And John 1:14 says,
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 the Apostle John writes, “& the Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth”I am well aware of the fact that Buzzard & the Unitarians argue that the Logos mentioned here by the Apostle John is not referring to a person, however, taken in context, when you view John 1:1-14 as a literary unit, the Logos can only refer to Jesus Christ who had a pre-existence & ultimately became flesh.If these verses do not refer to Jesus Christ who became flesh, what in the World does He mean when He says, “The Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father” who then, if not Jesus, is the Only begotten of the Father? The context of these passages conclusively demonstrate that:1. The Logos existed from the beginning with God.2. The Logos is Himself God. The lit. Greek renders it ‘& God was the Word”3. The Logos had preexistence as God.4. All things came into being through the Logos.5. The Logos became flesh.6. The Logos is Himself Jesus Christ as evidenced by the fact that the Logos becomes flesh & is called the only begotten of the Father.It is clear from the writings of the Apostle John that the only begotten of the Father refers to Jesus.
John the Baptist also argues for Christ’s divine preexistence when he says in John 1:15 “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.” He even says it again in 1:27
John 1:18 says,
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenhß qeoß (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text.
John 5:17-18
But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:24,
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 10:30-33 Jesus said,
I and the Father are one."
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
John 14:5-10
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
In John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed
John 20:28
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Philippians 2:5-11
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:13-19 says,
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Hebrews 1:1-8
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"?
Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Now the two primary lines of New Testament Argumentation that demonstrates the Deity of Jesus Christ from the Bible pertain to the Doxologies to Christ and the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
A Doxology is a Word said or sung in praise of the Holy Trinity demonstrating God’s worthiness of being venerated.
Usually a doxology is an expression of praise to God, especially a short hymn sung as part of a Christian worship service.
It is important to understand that doxologies of worship in the Bible are only directed towards God.
The fact that there are doxologies in the Bible to Jesus Christ demonstrates that His disciples in the New Testament viewed Him to be more than a mere man, but in all actuality God Himself.
If Jesus Christ is not God, then why then, did the disciples worship and pray to Jesus? Why then did the disciples direct their prayers to Christ?
If Christ is not God, then the disciples, who were strict Jewish monotheists engaged in the highest form of blasphemy by praying and worshipping Jesus as though He were God.
In John 9:35-39, the blind man who was healed worshipped Jesus as God, if Jesus was not God He would have rebuked the formerly blind man for blasphemy just as the Apostle John was rebuked by an Angel in Revelation 22, when John tried to worship the Angel
Please follow the contrast between John 9:35-39 and Revelation 22:8-9
John 9:35-39 says,
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?" Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you." He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind."
Acts 7:59-60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Steven’s calling upon Christ, which is a prayer demonstrates that Peter believed that Jesus was God.
Revelation 22:8-9 says,
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Revelation 1:5-7 contains a doxology to Jesus Christ,
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail[c] on account of him. Even so. Amen.
In Revelation 5: 8-14 we read about another glorious doxology to Jesus Christ
And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
In Revelation 7: 9-12
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
It is clear that this great multitude worshiped God the Father and the Lamb who is Jesus Christ simultaneously.
As Dr. Morey states in his excellent book on the Trinity, that Christ is not only the direct object of worship in the Book of Revelation, but He is also pictured as receiving equal worship with the Father. (Page 383).
Hebrews 13:21 also is another clear example of a doxology to Jesus,
“Equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen”
2 Peter 4:11 contains a doxology to Christ as well.
whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies--in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Good evening, I am grateful to Almighty God to be here tonight in order to defend the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the record, we are orthodox, historical and Biblical Evangelical Christians and we believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.
We believe that God the Father sent God the Son through the power and agency of God the Holy Spirit into the world to die on the cross for our sins And rise again from the dead in order to give all those who sincerely repent and believe in Christ the hope of eternal life.
Throughout the annals of human history a tremendous debate has raged over the true identity of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. While the Historic Christian Church has always affirmed the Doctrine of the Trinity and affirmed that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the Second person of the eternal Godhead, there have been many heretical opponents of historic Christianity.
Over the centuries of church history. there have been many heretical and aberrant views of the person of Jesus Christ.
The heretical group known as the “Gnostics” argued for a Docetic view of Christ and said, that Jesus Christ only “appeared” to take on human flesh and that Jesus Christ never shared both human and divine natures as the Chalcedonian Creedal formulation on the Hypostatic Union Affirms.
The Arians of the Fourth Century argue that Jesus Christ was not God, but rather was a created being that did not possess the same nature as God the Father.
The Modalists of Sabbelians, early opponents of Biblical Christianity likewise denied the Doctrine of the Trinity and argued that only one person exists in the godhead, who takes on different modes of being, some times manifesting Himself as the Father, other times as the Son and then at times as the Holy Spirit.
Sabbellianism is very closely associated with the ancient heresy known as Patripassianism, the belief that God the Father and Son are simply different aspects of God. The implication of this belief is that God the Father suffered on the cross.
Another heretical view concerning the godhead that the historic Christian Church rejects is Tritheism, the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad. The gods are envisaged as having separate powers and separate supreme beings or spheres of influence but working together.
Still another heretical view concerning the nature of God is the Unitarian view, argued for by my opponent this evening Dan Mages.
Historic Unitarianism afirms the notion of Unitary monotheism and believes in the oneness of God as opposed to traditional Christian belief in the Trinity that affirms that there are three distinct persons in the godhead. Historic Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus.
Oxford Trained and Leading Unitarian scholar Dr. Anthony Buzzard who I had the chance to speak with on Wednesday, argues in his book entitled, “The Doctrine of the Trinity” Christianity’s Self Inflicted wound” that in no place in the Bible does the Scriptures ever teach that Jesus Christ is God, rather Jesus is merely a human messiah who carried out the will of God the Father.
Dr. Buzzard says on page 335 of his book that contemporary othodox belief in the divine and human Christ is in all actuality a crypto-gnostic element that has been handed down to us in Trinitarian Christology.
On Page 275, in his chapter in that same book entitled, “The Challenge Facing Trinitarianism Today” Buzzard argues that nowhere in the New Testament is Jesus Christ called God.
Buzzard writes “God in the New Testament almost invariably means the Father of Jesus and never three persons”
However, despite Dr. Buzzard, Dan and the Biblical Unitarian oppostion to the view that Jesus Christ is God, there is nothing in their argument that gives us any reason to abandon the biblical and historic view concerning the Trinity and Deity of Christ. For we the historic and Biblical Church have always believed in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The Historic Christian Doctrine of the Trinity believed by all true Christians since the inception of the Church some two millennia ago states unequivocally the doctrine of Trinitarian Monotheism, in that, Almighty God is a singular being who exists simultaneously and eternally as a communion of three distinct and co-eternal persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit who share a single divine essence.
We, the true and historic orthodox Christian Church, believe that there exists only one true and living God and in God exists three distinct persons who share the same essence or nature of being, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We, the historic Christian Church reject the cultic doctrine of the Unitarian position on the nature of God for many irrefutable reasons.
First of all there is nothing in Dan Mages unbiblical and hermeneutically suspect presentation that persuades us to abandon the Biblical and historic doctrine of the Trinity.
His thesis and that of leading Unitarian teacher Anthony Buzzard is guilty of forced exegesis that does not do justice to abundant Scriptural evidence that the Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity and in particular the Deity of Christ, our specific focus this evening. We want to state for the record that we reject the notion implied by Dan and the Unitarians that we are somehow affirming Tritheism; rather, we are strict monotheists.
The historic Christian Church has always believed that there is one true and living God. We affirm the Shema’s declaration in Deuteronomy 6:4 that states, “O hear oh Israel, the Lord Your God is one Lord”
We affirm Isaiah 43:10 which reads,
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,"and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Yet, we believe in the historic doctrine of the Trinity affirming Trinitarian Monotheism. That in the one true and living God exists three distinct persons who share the same essence and divine nature.
The Bible clearly teaches there is one true God, yet it also teaches that those three distinct persons exist within the Godhead.
The Bible clearly calls the Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God.
The Bible explicitly teaches and celebrates that Jesus Christ is God the Son.
The Old Testament clearly teaches the Divinity of the Messiah,
Isaiah 9:6-7 says,
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
My question for Dan regarding Isaiah 9:6 is why is Jesus Christ called “Mighty God if He is not divine?”
Micah 5:2 says,
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
Dr. Thomas McComiskey, esteemed professor of OT & Semitic languages at Trinity Evangelical Divinity school states in the Expositor’s Bible commentary that the Hebrew grammar & syntax of Micah 5:2, in the terms “Old (qedem) & (yeme olam) denote great antiquity as well as eternity in the strictest sense. He argues that, Christ pre-existed in eternity past & only in Jesus Christ does this prophecy find fulfillment. (p427). Dr. Pocock, the late and highly respected English Arabic & Hebrew scholar, who occupied both the chairs of Arabic & Hebrew at Oxford argued that the term “of old, from everlasting” signals a description of Christ’s eternal generation, or His going forth as the Son of God, begotten of His father before all worlds”
In the New Testament there are very clear and unambiguous passages that teach that Jesus Christ is God.
Matthew 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”
The Trinitarian language of Matthew 28:19-20 is reminiscent of that which Paul used in 2 Corinthians 13:14:
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all”
My question for Dan is why is Jesus Christ included in the Triadic formulations if He is not God and equal with the Father. Why do we baptize in the name of Christ if He is not equal with the Father. Why does it say baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if only the Father is God, why is Jesus and the Holy Spirit included in the “name” in that Greek Grammatical construction? Why is the singular Greek term (onoma) used here and not a plural form?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And John 1:14 says,
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 the Apostle John writes, “& the Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace & truth”I am well aware of the fact that Buzzard & the Unitarians argue that the Logos mentioned here by the Apostle John is not referring to a person, however, taken in context, when you view John 1:1-14 as a literary unit, the Logos can only refer to Jesus Christ who had a pre-existence & ultimately became flesh.If these verses do not refer to Jesus Christ who became flesh, what in the World does He mean when He says, “The Word became flesh & dwelt amongst us & we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father” who then, if not Jesus, is the Only begotten of the Father? The context of these passages conclusively demonstrate that:1. The Logos existed from the beginning with God.2. The Logos is Himself God. The lit. Greek renders it ‘& God was the Word”3. The Logos had preexistence as God.4. All things came into being through the Logos.5. The Logos became flesh.6. The Logos is Himself Jesus Christ as evidenced by the fact that the Logos becomes flesh & is called the only begotten of the Father.It is clear from the writings of the Apostle John that the only begotten of the Father refers to Jesus.
John the Baptist also argues for Christ’s divine preexistence when he says in John 1:15 “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.” He even says it again in 1:27
John 1:18 says,
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenhß qeoß (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text.
John 5:17-18
But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:24,
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 10:30-33 Jesus said,
I and the Father are one."
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
John 14:5-10
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
In John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed
John 20:28
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Philippians 2:5-11
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:13-19 says,
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Hebrews 1:1-8
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"?
Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Now the two primary lines of New Testament Argumentation that demonstrates the Deity of Jesus Christ from the Bible pertain to the Doxologies to Christ and the Pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
A Doxology is a Word said or sung in praise of the Holy Trinity demonstrating God’s worthiness of being venerated.
Usually a doxology is an expression of praise to God, especially a short hymn sung as part of a Christian worship service.
It is important to understand that doxologies of worship in the Bible are only directed towards God.
The fact that there are doxologies in the Bible to Jesus Christ demonstrates that His disciples in the New Testament viewed Him to be more than a mere man, but in all actuality God Himself.
If Jesus Christ is not God, then why then, did the disciples worship and pray to Jesus? Why then did the disciples direct their prayers to Christ?
If Christ is not God, then the disciples, who were strict Jewish monotheists engaged in the highest form of blasphemy by praying and worshipping Jesus as though He were God.
In John 9:35-39, the blind man who was healed worshipped Jesus as God, if Jesus was not God He would have rebuked the formerly blind man for blasphemy just as the Apostle John was rebuked by an Angel in Revelation 22, when John tried to worship the Angel
Please follow the contrast between John 9:35-39 and Revelation 22:8-9
John 9:35-39 says,
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?" Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you." He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind."
Acts 7:59-60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Steven’s calling upon Christ, which is a prayer demonstrates that Peter believed that Jesus was God.
Revelation 22:8-9 says,
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Revelation 1:5-7 contains a doxology to Jesus Christ,
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail[c] on account of him. Even so. Amen.
In Revelation 5: 8-14 we read about another glorious doxology to Jesus Christ
And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
In Revelation 7: 9-12
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
It is clear that this great multitude worshiped God the Father and the Lamb who is Jesus Christ simultaneously.
As Dr. Morey states in his excellent book on the Trinity, that Christ is not only the direct object of worship in the Book of Revelation, but He is also pictured as receiving equal worship with the Father. (Page 383).
Hebrews 13:21 also is another clear example of a doxology to Jesus,
“Equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen”
2 Peter 4:11 contains a doxology to Christ as well.
whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies--in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Reflections on Last Friday's Trinity Debate
No man has seen God at any time, but the only begotten God, who was in the bosom of Father He has declared Him" (John 1:18).
Now that my debate with Dan Mages on the Deity of Christ has come and gone, I have had a few days to reflect on the event. First of all, I want to thank every one that came out last Friday, it was an awesome time and I am confident that the Lord was glorified.
I have received an enormous amount of positive feed back on the event and also some criticism, so I want to deal with the negative comments first.
I know that in putting on an event like this, I cannot please everyone. Some people thought I was too friendly to Dan Mages, others feel I was too harsh, others feel I preached the Gospel too much throughout the debate, others did not like the fact that I had one of our worship leaders play a few songs before the event.
Some people felt that I did wrong in not bring up any Greek exegesis arguments in defending the Deity of Christ. One fellow, was even bold enough to tell me that "If I knew any Greek I would have defeated Him better!"
The list of criticisms about such an event can be discouraging, but I appreciate these comments because they only work to help me improve in putting together better debates in the future.
While, I know that I will never be able to please everyone all the time in conducting these debates, I will honestly take these concerns and issues before the Lord and attempt to adjust and modify things as the Lord leads.
It is important that people know that there is more to organizing a debate then just studying for the debate and then showing up. There are an enormous amount of unseen variables involved in orchestrating such an event. Hundreds of hours of organizing are put forth in attempting to put together the best event possible.
In founding the Evangelical Debate Society, I have learned that to have a successful debate ministry one needs to be flexible and work together with people.
In being the chairman of this ministry, I have to wear many hats and juggle many responsibilities behind the scenes.
First of all you have to work together with your debating opponent and his organization. You have to make sure that he feels that his views and organizing issues are being met. So, there are weeks, of back and forth discussion on what the debate proposition and timing ans structure of the debate will look like.
Secondly, I have to find time to study for the event, despite the massive amount of time needed to publicize and promote the event as well as working together will office staff, graphic designers, donars, pastors, the moderator and many other people.
All of this is time consuming and not seen by the average person that comes to watch the debate, yet I rejoice that such a ministry is possible and I have grown to love putting together all these details to put forward the best debate possible.
In the future, I plan on holding many, many other debates and I am learning crucial lessons of organizational leadership in the process, so I want to thank everyone for their constructive comments!
Now, regarding the debate itself. Dan Mages was a very formidable opponent and I enjoyed the lively exchange of ideas that we discussed.
I feel that the strongest arguments that I raised in the debate concerned the Prayers and worship of Jesus Christ. Dan did not seem to have a good answer in why the disciples in the NT prayed and worshiped Jesus and what the significance of the cross is to the Unitarians if Jesus Christ is not in fact God.
I am still greatly perplexed as to why Jesus' death matters at all if Christ is not in fact God. What is the purpose of the atonement? How can a mere man's death have universal salvific-soteriological implications if He is not God? Why is Christ's death any different than another man's, if Christ is not in fact God?
If Jesus Christ is not God, then why does His death upon the cross have any greater significance than any other death of other mortals?
I believe by declaring that Jesus Christ is not God, this then automatically robs and jettisons the cross of its soteriological gravity and significance, since it essentially says that Jesus' death is similar to that of any other man who lived and died.
Another issue that was raised concerns the sinlessness of Christ. If Jesus is not God as Dan Mages and the Biblical Unitarians suggest, how is it possible that Jesus remains without sin? How does Jesus remain impeccable if He is robbed of His Deity?
Dan argued that while Jesus Christ is not God, He is greater somehow than the average man. So, somehow Jesus is not God, but He is kind of an in-between, "Demi-god" like being that should be esteemed higher than the average person for some inexplicable reason.
Dan argued that people in the NT prayed and worshiped Jesus Christ somehow in some lesser capacity then God. I do not see how this is possible when in some passages of Scripture (Revelation 1, 5 and 7), the Father and Jesus are worshiped as God and the worshipers simutaneously worship Jesus and the Father at the same time without any distinction being made.
Now that my debate with Dan Mages on the Deity of Christ has come and gone, I have had a few days to reflect on the event. First of all, I want to thank every one that came out last Friday, it was an awesome time and I am confident that the Lord was glorified.
I have received an enormous amount of positive feed back on the event and also some criticism, so I want to deal with the negative comments first.
I know that in putting on an event like this, I cannot please everyone. Some people thought I was too friendly to Dan Mages, others feel I was too harsh, others feel I preached the Gospel too much throughout the debate, others did not like the fact that I had one of our worship leaders play a few songs before the event.
Some people felt that I did wrong in not bring up any Greek exegesis arguments in defending the Deity of Christ. One fellow, was even bold enough to tell me that "If I knew any Greek I would have defeated Him better!"
The list of criticisms about such an event can be discouraging, but I appreciate these comments because they only work to help me improve in putting together better debates in the future.
While, I know that I will never be able to please everyone all the time in conducting these debates, I will honestly take these concerns and issues before the Lord and attempt to adjust and modify things as the Lord leads.
It is important that people know that there is more to organizing a debate then just studying for the debate and then showing up. There are an enormous amount of unseen variables involved in orchestrating such an event. Hundreds of hours of organizing are put forth in attempting to put together the best event possible.
In founding the Evangelical Debate Society, I have learned that to have a successful debate ministry one needs to be flexible and work together with people.
In being the chairman of this ministry, I have to wear many hats and juggle many responsibilities behind the scenes.
First of all you have to work together with your debating opponent and his organization. You have to make sure that he feels that his views and organizing issues are being met. So, there are weeks, of back and forth discussion on what the debate proposition and timing ans structure of the debate will look like.
Secondly, I have to find time to study for the event, despite the massive amount of time needed to publicize and promote the event as well as working together will office staff, graphic designers, donars, pastors, the moderator and many other people.
All of this is time consuming and not seen by the average person that comes to watch the debate, yet I rejoice that such a ministry is possible and I have grown to love putting together all these details to put forward the best debate possible.
In the future, I plan on holding many, many other debates and I am learning crucial lessons of organizational leadership in the process, so I want to thank everyone for their constructive comments!
Now, regarding the debate itself. Dan Mages was a very formidable opponent and I enjoyed the lively exchange of ideas that we discussed.
I feel that the strongest arguments that I raised in the debate concerned the Prayers and worship of Jesus Christ. Dan did not seem to have a good answer in why the disciples in the NT prayed and worshiped Jesus and what the significance of the cross is to the Unitarians if Jesus Christ is not in fact God.
I am still greatly perplexed as to why Jesus' death matters at all if Christ is not in fact God. What is the purpose of the atonement? How can a mere man's death have universal salvific-soteriological implications if He is not God? Why is Christ's death any different than another man's, if Christ is not in fact God?
If Jesus Christ is not God, then why does His death upon the cross have any greater significance than any other death of other mortals?
I believe by declaring that Jesus Christ is not God, this then automatically robs and jettisons the cross of its soteriological gravity and significance, since it essentially says that Jesus' death is similar to that of any other man who lived and died.
Another issue that was raised concerns the sinlessness of Christ. If Jesus is not God as Dan Mages and the Biblical Unitarians suggest, how is it possible that Jesus remains without sin? How does Jesus remain impeccable if He is robbed of His Deity?
Dan argued that while Jesus Christ is not God, He is greater somehow than the average man. So, somehow Jesus is not God, but He is kind of an in-between, "Demi-god" like being that should be esteemed higher than the average person for some inexplicable reason.
Dan argued that people in the NT prayed and worshiped Jesus Christ somehow in some lesser capacity then God. I do not see how this is possible when in some passages of Scripture (Revelation 1, 5 and 7), the Father and Jesus are worshiped as God and the worshipers simutaneously worship Jesus and the Father at the same time without any distinction being made.
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